Travel Again Podcast - Interview with Jason Wynn | S3E4

Travel Again Podcast: S3E4 - Loyalty, AI, and the Future of Travel with Chase Travel CEO Jason Wynn

In Season 3, Episode 4 of the Travel Again podcast, hosts Mike McCormick and Ed Silver dive deep into the evolving landscape of travel loyalty, AI, and the growing influence of financial institutions with a very special guest: Jason Wynn, CEO of Chase Travel.

Before the main interview, Mike and Ed discuss the latest travel news. They touch upon airlines adjusting forecasts amid economic uncertainty, the rapid development of AI travel planning agents like 'Manus', and the significant moves banks and credit card companies are making into the travel booking space, shaking up traditional loyalty dynamics.

The core of the episode is the insightful conversation with Jason Wynn. He shares his extensive journey through the travel industry, from airlines to startups, leading to his current role shaping Chase's major push into travel. Jason discusses the ambitious strategy behind Chase Travel, integrating acquisitions like CX Loyalty and FROSCH to build a powerful platform combining high-tech capabilities with high-touch service.

Episode Highlights:

• Chase Travel's Vision: Jason explains Chase's goal to create a self-contained travel ecosystem that leverages high-tech (owning their platform) and high-touch (premium service via FROSCH) to serve its customer base, viewing travel as a key engagement driver beyond core banking.

• Shifting Loyalty Landscape: Jason observes that younger generations prioritize flexible reward currencies like Chase Ultimate Rewards over traditional single-brand airline or hotel loyalty programs.

• AI's Transformative Role: Jason strongly believes AI will fundamentally change travel. Chase is investing heavily, initially focusing on agent efficiency and call analysis, with future plans for customer-facing AI agents.

• The Power of Data & Personalization: Chase aims to leverage its vast cardholder spending data (used responsibly and securely) to deliver highly personalized travel experiences, offers, and content within its platform, creating a competitive advantage.

• Integrating Lifestyle: Chase Travel is part of a broader strategy to connect various lifestyle assets Chase has acquired (like dining platform The Infatuation) to offer value across the entire trip experience, not just the booking.

• Opportunities & Challenges: Key opportunities include harnessing data and integrating lifestyle assets. Major challenges involve prioritizing the many potential initiatives and maintaining focus during execution.

• Coping with Chaos: Jason shares his personal methods for handling life's chaos, finding grounding in faith and utilizing daily practices like sauna and cold plunges.

This episode provides a fascinating look inside one of the biggest new players in the travel booking and loyalty space and where the industry might be heading.

Listen to the full episode here: Travel Again Podcast S3E4

Full Episode Transcript:

(Intro Music/Announcer): Welcome to Travel Again Presents, the weekly travel roundup covering the headwinds and tailwinds impacting the business of travel. Please welcome our hosts, Mike McCormick and Ed Silver.

Mike: Hello, Mike. Welcome back.

Ed: Hey, Ed. Good to see you as always.

Mike: See you too. We are still in season three, episode four. Man, we are... we are just cooking this season.

Ed: Yep, it's great. Great guests, never-never ending amount of content and issues and news to talk about as well. So, uh, I'm looking forward to another episode.

Mike: Yeah, we're going to cover the news as always. There's some serious ups and downs in travel, which we'll go through. And then, man, today's guest, I have been looking forward to this guest for a while. It is one of my favorite topics covering loyalty, credit card, bank travel platforms. Man, Mike, hold on to your hat. It's going to be a great interview today.

Ed: Yep. So it should be good.

Mike: All right. With that, Mike, let's bust right into the news. I've chosen three articles today for us, as always. The first one from The New York Times: "Airlines cut forecasts, raising an early alarm about consumer spending." Mike, from the New York Times: Airlines flashed an early warning signal on Tuesday, March 11th, suggesting that consumers and businesses were starting to get nervous amid wider economic and political uncertainty. Several carriers cut their financial forecast for the first months of the year saying that revenues would be weaker than expected. They pointed to a number of reasons, Mike: bad weather, high-profile plane crashes, and less spending by consumers, businesses, and the federal government. And lastly, here's a quote from Ed Bastian: "We just went through a little bit of a parade of horribles," he said this at the JP Morgan Industrials Conference on Tuesday morning. Um, any insight here? A little context for our listeners, Mike?

Ed: Well, as always, I mean, travel is an indicator of the economy, of where business is going. It's an early indicator. I mean, we've shown that for years and years and years of all the work we've been involved in in the industry over the years. It's amazing how much of an indicator it is. And it's an indicator of GDP growth. It's an indicator of, you know, overall, let's say, mood or weariness about the economy. It shows... it just goes through it because travel drives business everywhere. It's what, you know, it's again an indicator for future business growth or slowdown.

And then on the personal spending side, I mean, travel is also like a great indicator for where the mindset is of the consumer for travel, you know, for travel, but their overall budgets. Right? So it's not a surprise to me. His "Parade of Horribles," I think he's even understating it, honestly. In the current environment... well, and I'll say that it is, and it also shows the resiliency of travel too, which is another thing, right? That ultimately, despite the Parade of Horribles that might have wrecked other industries, like travel kind of does always live on, right? Because people need the connection for a variety of reasons, personally, professionally. So there's a lot in there.

But I think the fact that, you know, look, that this is getting covered in the way it is tells you how much now the industry... everyone looks towards those as indicators for what's going to happen down the road. And then, you know, not surprisingly, there's so much turmoil and uncertainty and everything happening here in Washington and what that's creating too, you know, you're seeing the stock market effect there and everything else. Well, of course, that takes away from consumer and then ultimately traveler confidence. Not for maybe safety reasons, primarily. Usually those things are very isolated when something happens from a safety perspective or security perspective. It has an impact, but it's generally pretty short-lived, relatively. But, you know, the ultimately the bigger effect is what we're seeing. So again, not surprising, but also very obviously disappointing because we've had a nice trajectory going here and now we're hitting on maybe a little different, you know, growth kind of and/or flattening of the growth curve, at least for a little while. So again, a lot to look at here and one we certainly will pay close attention to. But obviously, you know, I think others will, too, if they're smart, because it is a great indicator.

Mike: Mike, do you think consumers should expect to see lower costs for flights or fewer routes? Is that how the airlines will respond or neither?

Ed: Well, on the airline front, I mean, look, capacity cuts, you know, capacity increases, those take time to work into their, you know, flight schedule and system and everything else, like in terms of planning. So even though they're saying, like they're saying, "Well, we're..." you know, United and Delta and others said, you know, that they're going to kind of trim capacity. Usually when they're trimming, it's kind of in areas where they have some unprofitable routes, some underserved, you know, routes that aren't performing as well, that they may dial back a bit. Um, not primary, you know, changes to their, you know, route structure and everything that... but they try to, you know, trim and prune and reposition aircraft and/or park them if that's what's required. Right? But, um, yeah, so I think you do have that kind of impact, but that usually takes a little time to work itself through the system. So it's not an immediate thing, but it is something, again, they've signaled they're willing to do. Traditionally, airlines are really good at increasing capacity, not so great about dialing back capacity when they really need to. So, you know, they're out in front of that, too, in terms of letting the shareholders know so nobody gets spooked. But here we are.

Mike: OK, thanks for that perspective. Mike, article two today is on AI. No shocker that I've chosen an AI article for us. This one is "Autonomous AI Agent Manus Joins the Fray." Uh, this is from our friends at FocusWire. Blink and you could miss the launch of the latest artificial intelligence initiative. Manus (Latin for hand) is described as a general AI agent and has already demonstrated its ability to put together a complex travel itinerary as it created a seven-day trip from Seattle to Japan. The prompt for the China-based AI agent, which is in early preview, asked for a detailed itinerary as well as handbook, including maps, attractions, descriptions, and some essential Japanese phrases and travel tips. So like Operator in many ways that we talked about on a previous episode, Manus steps up. Thoughts on this one, Mike?

Ed: Well, so this is where I get... you know, I think this is more of a question for you. Like, we're certainly at the very early phases of the introduction of this AI agent and the impact on the industry. The question for me starts to become, like, how this is going to play out, like, thinking ahead. It's like, yeah, the capabilities will keep, you know, enhancing and enhancing. But, like, okay, so I have this Manus, like, but are people really going to... You know, we're all focused on it in the industry, but are people really going to go there, get there, use it? Or, you know, is Manus going to build demand, like build up demand and build up a following independently of, you know, suppliers or OTAs or the loyalty, you know, travel providers, right?

So... I find that hard to believe. I mean, people still fundamentally lean into brands, like go to... they think brands and brand loyalty first, not some AI tool that was developed in some other part of the world. Right? I mean, so I think to me the game is, you know, you've got maybe... maybe some new entrants that will incorporate all these capabilities, but effectively try to build a consumer brand on top of that. Right? As opposed to the tools being front and center. You know, I mean, it just... it doesn't feel like that's where we're going to end up. But I could see, you know, where somebody might take a tool like a capability like that and then build like a whole new kind of front-end experience on it. You know, that's more... that that's maybe a whole different flow in terms of the planning and booking flow than what we're used to today. And it takes off, right, for example. And that could be ultimately the ultimate threat, but I just feel like, you know, like for your average consumer right now, they're not going to say, "Oh, I'm going to go to Manus to like, you know..." you know, they're just... they're going to go to the places, the brands they recognize and know. But I don't know your comments on that. I mean, I know from a tech perspective, you know, we're paving new ground every day.

Mike: So, yeah. And I think... I think that's the key and why I raise this one as an article to watch, as in the same way I raised Operator on a previous episode. It's not so much that I think Operator or Manus are going to take over travel. It's more the example that AI can now consume the web, AI can also consume and view your computer, and that those enhancements, those breakthroughs could lead down the road to ways in which travel could be searched in a meta way. I particularly think meta search should be watching out for these types of things. And it's just an advancement that is fascinating to watch from a technology perspective and one that eventually could make its way to a consumer. Both Manus and Operator are not even available for the general population at this stage. So we're relying on third-party reports about how it works and maybe even the company's demo of it. So way, way more to come, but fascinating to see the speed of development here in this sector is just amazing.

Ed: Yeah, I mean, you know, the elapsed time between, you know, this innovation, the next one, the next one seems to keep really compressing to your point, right? I mean, it's really, it is really something to see. I mean, we're seeing like, you know, basically it's a, you know, it's like a race, you know, a space race in its own way, right? Or kind of thing, right? It's like where you're... the next iteration, the better tool, the better tool. It's like, it's not like... it doesn't take a year. It takes like two weeks and the next thing is out.

Mike: Right. It's exactly right. And the article was funny because it says, "Blink and you might've missed it." And this one came out of nowhere and it's just another one to keep an eye on.

Ed: Yeah. Good stuff.

Mike: Okay, Mike, article three I chose in light of our guests, but also because it is one of my favorite sectors. And it's uh, from our friends at Skift. The article is, um, "Banks and credit card companies are shaking up travel." And for Skift, they gave three key takeaways, and I'll give you a little perspective on this. Travel loyalty programs have become dull and overcrowded with increasingly brand-agnostic consumers who prioritize discounts and perks over traditional loyalty. Maybe time for something new? New entrants such as banks and credit cards are capitalizing on the opportunity and are entering the travel space through the launch of their own dedicated travel booking platforms. Now, that is not a surprise, but there are three key takeaways according to Skift: banks and credit cards are going it alone, banks are quickly gaining share, and banks are growing through B2B deals with OTAs. So what's your perspective here, Mike? And we'll obviously have to ask our guest what's going on here.

Ed: Well, I was going to say, we probably... a lot of this we'll share for our guests, with our guests, and uh, and kind of wait on, you know, getting into it. But, you know, to me, when you boil it all down, it still comes back to a lot of the same kind of core principles that play here. One is like, you know, cost of acquisition of a customer, you know, the loyalty, you know, how much loyalty can you um, build into the relationship so that the lifetime value of that customer keeps going up. Um, it's a scale game in travel, you know, in terms of the cost of acquiring customers, capital expenditure back into the business that's required. I mean, this is not a... at least historically, this has not been a small budget, small player game. I mean, some innovation comes from that area. Most of the time in our industry, those companies get bought up and absorbed into the bigger brands that have the spend and have the reach and have built the, you know, the volume so that they can go spend, you know, literally billions of dollars on customer acquisition, right? It's... and even the brands themselves, I mean they, you know, they spend... that's a big part of their focus.

So to me, like a lot of the fundamentals are the same, but what's interesting is that to your point... Back to the dream is that you, being the customer, comes to you first, right? If it's your credit card company that is offering you... you want the hub of activity for them to always be coming to you, comparing to you, coming through you first. You know, booking where you may... you may not always book there or you may not always ultimately use your points or whatever. But the fact is, you know, you're putting the majority of your travel wallet is going into that relationship. Right? And that's the battle ultimately. Right? So this is very interesting. And it's interesting how the... the big shifts then change between, you know, and now like to the point of the OTA relationships and everything. It gets really interesting, right? Interesting bedfellows as the market changes and, you know, as it does, right? So, yeah, I mean, I think it's leading us right into, you know, our guest, which is... this is a really interesting conversation. Anyway, any thoughts from you?

Mike: No, I think I will wait to hear from our guests, but I will say just one quick thing. I'm probably not unlike many consumers who have stopped focusing on my loyalty, you know, kind of work with any particular brand or any particular airline. And I rely on my credit card to be able to go anywhere with any airline. And so I'll be curious to hear if I'm not the only consumer doing that. Obviously, I'm not. And as you can see, the growth of Chase in that particular graphic was really incredible. So it'll be interesting to hear more about that.

Ed: Well, I have a little theory, mini theory about some of that, too, I want to talk to our guests about. So I'll save it. I won't even bring it up right now.

Mike: All right. The buildup to our guest grows. Mike, we will be right back with our guest.

(Segment Break/Sponsor Read): Mike, this week we recorded a spotlight episode covering Focusrite's latest report, the Focusrite Travel Innovation and Technology Trends Report. Let me pull that up for our guests because it's a mouthful. Trends 2025: Generative AI and Digital Identity Converge. And so a really great report from our friends at Focusrite covering all the latest trends in AI and what's going on with digital identity. And our listeners should really go out... The report is free, unlike a lot of the Focusrite research. And so this is a great one to go out and look at. Michael Coletto from Focusrite did a fantastic job covering what's going on in Gen-AI across the board. And it really covers the most significant innovation trends in travel technology and distribution for 2025 and beyond. You can read the report at both Focusrite and we will make the report available as well. And then lastly, if you are interested in more beyond just reading the report, you can hear from folks about this by registering for their conference at Focusrite.com. And they're going to do a series of these, Mike. The first one is called the "New Agents Trend Series Part One: The Impact on Company Operations." Obviously, we talk a lot about AI and travel, but this is a chance for people to register and hear from operators and get a sense of what is going on and continue to go on in that space. And so the report, go download it from our site or from Focusrite and enjoy that and register for the event. The event is on March 25th at 11 AM. Fantastic new report from Focusrite.

Mike: All right, Mike, now on to our guest. Today, our guest is Jason Wynn. Jason Wynn serves as the CEO of Chase Travel, where he leads all travel-related functions and shapes the consumer travel strategy for Chase. His responsibilities encompass overseeing Chase Travel, Chase Travel Corporate Solutions, FROSCH, and Valerie Wilson Travel. Under his leadership, Chase Travel offers Chase card members a comprehensive suite of travel content and resources, including The Edit, Voyages, and Reserve Travel Designers to help them craft their dream travel experiences. Please join me in welcoming Jason Wynn to the stage. Welcome Jason.

Jason: Hi there, Jason. How are you, Mike?

Mike: Good, good. How are you doing?

Jason: I'm great. Thanks for having me on here.

Mike: Well, thanks for taking some time. Jumping right in, I mean, look, I've known you in the industry over the years, but it's been quite a journey for you and really for Chase in parallel to be sitting here today with that all under your umbrella. Just take a minute, tell us about your journey a little bit to getting here and how's it going in Chase right now?

Jason: Yeah, journey is a good way to describe it. It's been fast-paced, a little bit of a roller coaster, but an incredible ride. And I think we're really excited about the future. Yeah, how did I get here? Listen, we're all the sum of our experiences. I've been in the industry coming up on 30 years now. Started in the airline space, you know, had an awesome opportunity to work with some young execs that now are kind of the stalwarts and leaders of the airline industry: Doug Parker and Robert Isom and Scott Kirby, Andrew Nocella, uh, you know, a guy named JR Wilson who, you know, bought a bunch of airlines including Frontier and that, um, with Bill Franke. So, um, it was a great way to cut my teeth in the industry and learned a lot from those guys.

Had a chance to go from there to, you know, American Express where [I] learned a different side of the business and more about distribution and the customer side. And then ultimately, and Mike, we had some overlap, you know, just in conversation because we were both in the DC area at the time. Um, I had a chance to go work for a startup. I worked for the founder of Priceline, a guy named Jay Walker, had an idea around business travel, sort of in the space of what Navan and TravelPerk is doing, but a little bit different take on it. And did that for five years, trying to build that business, ultimately unsuccessful, but I would say the best education, maybe the most expensive education I've ever received. Although I did go to Columbia, so maybe not, I don't know. But certainly the most valuable.

And the sum of trying to build something from scratch and what I had learned prior to that then kind of led me to the opportunity at Chase. Allison Beer, who is our CEO of All Card and Commerce Products, was someone who I worked with during my American Express time. And she reached out saying, "Hey, you know, kind of coming out of COVID, we see a real opportunity here and would like for someone to come in and, you know, formalize this strategy for us."

Mike: Well, it's interesting, too. And, you know, you're talking about the upside with Jay and all that. But, you know, one of those that, you know, to your point, like not everything works. Sometimes you learn as much from the things that don't ultimately as the ones that do. Right? And but in that case, like you did have... it seemed like on that one you had like a loyalist following. And but it never... it didn't get beyond that. People were either like, "This is the best thing ever," or they were like, "Hell no, never." Right? There was no middle ground on that proposition. It was interesting, though. It was like an interesting little part of our history in the travel sector. Right?

So, well, now you sit on top of, you know, really a broad range of assets. And I know, you know, some of them... it's been a combination of acquisition and which certainly put the building blocks together, but then also obviously a lot of integration work and organically growing at the same time and doing everything. I'm always fascinated by those. I mean, Ed and I met because of our involvement in Cendant, which was also similar, right, in its own way. And all the brands we put together and all the assets we put together. And, you know, by the way, Todd Siegel is the CEO of CX Loyalty, came from Cendant. He worked over there as well. So...

Jason: Yeah. Yeah, we're... there's not... we always say it's like one degree of separation, man. There's no... like everybody is... well, like the paths all cross. Right?

Mike: But it's interesting, like when you do that, like I always used to say, like, you know, we would go and do, you know, at that point with Cendant, you know, we had a blank checkbook to go get what we needed. It had to work, of course, and had to produce results. But there's always that pressure of, you know, literally the 18 to 24 months it just always takes to like bring on and integrate an asset. And, you know, as opposed to what's on paper investment bankers, shareholders want to say, "Well, it's in the... it's in the plan, so therefore it's done already." Like they don't want to hear about the 18 to 24 months it takes to put it all together. And in your case, I mean, you know, this was ambitious, right? You, you know, you were, you know, to do a whole vertical integration between CX Loyalty on up to what you're actually, what the consumer is actually seeing doing brands. I mean, it was, you know, ambitious. But tell me like, where do you think you are now? How do you think you are? You know, where do you sit versus competition, et cetera. Give me a little bit of a, you know, state of the union for Chase.

Jason: So Mike, are you saying that integrations are hard? We... we...

Mike: We all know they are. That's for sure. For me, because I just tell Ed to do it.

Ed: That's exactly right. I was just going to say.

Jason: Yeah. I mean, everything looks so perfect on paper. Yeah. Listen, I've been incredibly proud of the team and, you know, the leadership of the teams we've acquired between CX Loyalty and FROSCH and how everyone kind of onboarded the mission of going after a bigger prize and, um, you know, trying to keep everyone in the boat and sell them on, "Hey, here was the thing that you were focused on yesterday, which is no longer the thing. It's now focused on that." All of that is incredibly difficult, but I think we've managed it really, really well. Um, I think we're, you know, we still have the last kind of couple miles in the marathon to go around some of the tech integrations, but we feel really good about it.

I think the thing we're trying to do and, you know, the notion behind it is pretty straightforward, which was like, "Hey, if we look at our competitors in the loyalty space, if we look at our sort of competitors writ large within travel, you know, where... what are the things that we think are going to give us the most control over the future destiny?" And it was like, "All right, we need to own our own tech." So this whole notion of high-tech with CX Loyalty, having our own platform... have over a thousand, you know, product and engineers and design folks within the organization fully dedicated to our roadmap and travel, which is absolutely incredible. And then it was, "All right, how do we service that and how do we make sure we can deliver, you know, the high-end capabilities?" And that's where FROSCH came in, you know, for that high-touch. And really sitting at that intersection was, if I was to boil it down into something that was really simple, it was, "Can we sit at that intersection of high-tech and high-touch given the assets that we've got within JPMorgan Chase, which skew affluent, and how do we deliver that experience to the future?" And so, you know, as we've moved on, I feel even more bullish behind the strategy. I think it's proven itself out. Still a ton left to do, but I couldn't be happier with the acquisitions that we've made and so far, so good.

Mike: Good. Yeah. And so I'll come at it a little different direction. This is one I wanted to... you know, I'm always curious about. I mean, Ed and I certainly have also done a lot of work with, you know, various brands around the space and certainly in your space. And I'm always curious because like at the end of the day, I mean, look, Chase is a bank, credit card issuer, you know, that's the core business, right? And, you know, we working in the travel industry always, you know, to me, travel is everything, right? And there's certainly brands and companies out there that are solely focused on travel. That's, you know, what they do. And it always struck me a little bit of the balance of, although you can... I assume within Chase that travel, in terms of for any cardholder, the most important benefit to them is travel or travel-related benefits or the things that the vast majority of your customers would say would be the most important kind of feature aside from the actual credit card vehicle itself, like what they do. But at the end of the day, the business is... it's a balance, right? Where does travel fit in the priorities within Chase? Like, do you feel like it's, you know, is it the highest priority? Is it like, you know, because you could see where it doesn't have to be, but it creates an interesting kind of, you know, let's say balance or conflict at times when you're... when you need resources, you need things, you need focus, you need attention. Like, how do you balance all that within Chase?

Jason: Yeah, I mean, a couple points there. I mean, one, JPMorgan Chase is so large, right? We talked about... Jamie talks about our fortress balance sheet and, you know, we've got 80 million households on the Chase side that bank with us or work with us. So the ecosystem is absolutely massive. And I think the notion, which really was Mary Ann Lake and Allison, to their credit, coming out of COVID was this: You know, there's a lot of disruptors out there, especially in fintech, that are kind of taking slim portions of the value proposition, delivering these beautiful experiences and chipping away to get at our core asset, which is deposits and banking. And it was, "All right, well, like, what things can we do top-of-funnel to increase engagement?" And travel is this natural adjacency, right? It's like, "Hey, this is important to folks. We don't own our own assets. So like, let's control our destiny in that space and be able to deliver these great experiences by which, you know, we can bring new customers in, especially skewing younger, and start to, you know, get them into our fray."

And by the way, I listened to your, you know, um, the fact that you referenced the Skift article... I mean, that's exactly what we're trying to do is get these younger generations who are looking to their bank for more than just their bank and are starting to adopt and see us as ones who can influence their lifestyle experiences and be able to deliver against that promise. Ultimately, that then brings them into the core assets like banking. And so capital like recurring revenue that comes from travel, opportunity to engage these customers across their day-to-day... That was the reason behind it, you know, for us. And of course, there's balancing of priorities across the firm, but the fact that as a result of these acquisitions, as I referenced, we're self-contained... I've got, you know, 6,000 employees including tech fully dedicated to travel, you know, our profit margin is sustainable enough where we're our own ecosystem and we're able to invest the way that we need to invest and... it's just really a great differentiator and benefit for us to have.

Mike: One of the fundamentals, like it always comes back to the money, but it's like, hey, look, and it's, you know, airlines can say that... I mean, travel is never going to have the margins that banking is going to have. I mean, let's just be real, right? That's inherently part of the challenge. But to your point, like... But I appreciate kind of even what you're saying and like that you're building really – you've built this like self-contained full end-to-end business that delivers on its own. You could pull – I mean to me, you could take Chase Travel out – put it over here as a separate company and you've got a healthy company that, you know, like with great, you know, really strong numbers relative to our industry. Right? That's... and that's always the, I mean, to me a bit of the push and pull, but it's an interesting balance that you guys seem to, you know, seem to be managing it well. So it's just a... I always, I always like look at those, even from a leadership perspective, right? You know, you're, you know, foot on the pedal, gas brake, gas brake. It's like always those balancing acts, right? With travel loyalty generally, now back to loyalty, where do you see loyalty programs going? Where do you see the future for your programs?

Jason: Yeah, I mean, it's a little crystal ballish, but I think the data is pretty telling. And let's skip referencing back to that [Skift article] and both of you discussing how you look at your points. I believe the trends are telling us that the younger generation is less brand loyal in their loyalty program. So when you think about just having all your points in one particular supplier... that doesn't tend to be where people are focused. And that's where the loyalty programs have a real benefit in the fact that you're accruing these things through not just your behavior with travel, but your everyday spend, and you're building up essentially this war chest to be able to deploy against these great lifestyle things that you want to do, travel being a primary one. And so, you know, just the growth that we're seeing within the card business and what we're seeing around millennials, Gen Z's coming, which is the lion's share of new acquisitions that are coming in, you know, suggests to us that our currency, which is Ultimate Rewards, and our product, travel and dining, and these other assets we have are the things that are resonating. And so I think we're going to go from strength to strength.

Mike: Yeah. Okay. Let's kind of shift gears to like, you know, AI personalization, you know, use of data. I mean, clearly, you know... Well, secure use, appropriate use of data is obviously hugely fundamental to your business, right? You know, where do you see the trends going for you there? Where are you, you know, where are you placing your bets? Where do you see, you know, AI in the bigger picture for Chase Travel? Little thoughts along those lines?

Jason: Yeah. I mean, you know, we hear about these things all the time that this... this is gonna change travel and that, you know, whether it was the online travel agencies previously... this is one that the closer I get to it, this is fundamentally going to change travel: AI. One of the benefits that we have at the firm is we are obviously investing heavily, heavily in this space. We've been investing in this space for years and years and years, so now it's just these large language models coming to fruition. We are tapped in with a lot of the LLM providers, having conversations with them around what they're seeing, how we can work together. And just increasingly, I'm like, "Oh, this is going to change the game."

So we are putting a lot of focus here. Starting point is obviously just more around efficiency. How can we make the agents take work away? Fare rules and things in the GDS that are really complex and simplify those down real-time. Taking in calls... we have over two million calls that have been fully analyzed now. So every call that comes into our call center gets fully analyzed for issues and what was the core of it that we can analyze and bring that back to the next call. So it's really around that. The future is going to be around the agentic side of things. And we're working through our plans there. And I still believe that the agent will be in the middle, but this is going to be the thing that absolutely supercharges our business. And I think for us, where we think we are going to be in more of a catbird seat with this is we are sitting on the biggest amount of data out there relative to the travel industry, just given our card business and the transactions that are going through. So being able to leverage that in our models and being able to bring back personalized results, it's got to be the thing that for us is going to over time separate us from the pack if we do it right.

Mike: Anything coming soon related to the user interface in terms of how the user searches for travel once they're within your portal?

Jason: Yeah, I mean, the customer-facing side of it is the next step. Obviously, given we're bank-regulated, we've got to do it the right way and think through it. I think the good news for us is we sit behind a firewall, so you've got to authenticate. So there's two different paths... there's the, "Hey, can you just do something out in the wild?" Much harder equation for us to do given data privacy versus, "You log in and now you're in our ecosystem." And given that a lot of the search is not going to require proprietary data, at least at the outset, to come back with, "Hey, we've got this great Edit property, right, which would meet your needs," or "Here's how you can maximize your points balance to be able to get... for 50,000 points, how you get air, car..." you know, whatever that might be. All those use cases are, you know, well within our purview and things that we're marching towards.

Mike: Well, I think one of the advantages you have in that part is that in order to do the things that, to me, like they want to do things that are going to be really innovative and interesting for the personalization part... to your point about the data you have, you know, you have a much different purview in terms of not just where somebody's spending with that one supplier or even just on travel, but you have a much broader picture of their whole world. Which if the customer is giving you the permission to do, to your point, you could really come back with some much more... much more, you know, interesting personalized kind of offers, rates, program... you know, like things at the right... and that gets really exciting on one level if you're a willing participant in that. But then back to, in order to do that, I have to have a lot of trust that you're not just, you know... using or misusing data to like, you know, kind of get something out of me, right?

And that's where I think that... we mentioned that in the news articles... I still feel like that, you know, I love... I play with all the tools, I do some... Ed is like, you know, he's got... he's been in every one of them, right? But like, I don't think... I don't have any trust in those tools. I have a trust in... I would have a trust in my banking and, you know, card relationship with you. And if you're using those tools and I feel, you know, I feel like appropriately, you know, that I'm good with that. You know, give me a great offer on something, a program or something. I get excited. Right? It's different as opposed to getting some random thing that like you're like, "Oh, you know, they know that."

Mike: But I bet today you still have a pretty hard firewall from the card spend patterns of an individual. I bet that doesn't cross over into the personalization experience of the travel portal, or does it? Are you able to use that data?

Jason: We are able to use that data. I mean, obviously safeguarded and through all the right channels and through our compliance and regulatory bodies, making sure that we're using it. But yes, we use it in the way that we are... or I should say we are in the process of using it in the way that we personalize the sites and try to get the right content. I mean, at the end of the day, right, you want to be able to find the things that you're looking for. We are a mall, right? We have content from a lot of different sources. And so navigating through that can sometimes be a challenge. And so that we're able to help you with that, whether that's just the way we sort things and personalize that to you, Ed, versus you, Mike, or the marketing offers and how we go after customers that may have not used us in a while to bring them back with, you know... that's how we're using the data today.

Mike: Yeah, but even along those lines, this goes back to, man, what's old is new again, right? And I remember back when I first started out in the industry, travel agents would do the old fam trips, familiarization trips, so you'd get to know the destinations you're actually selling and offering to your customers. And I still feel like kind of coming forward to today, it's like, yeah, AI could come up with all this wonderful... But, you know, has anyone actually done that trip? You know, do I... like, somebody, like, vetted that offer? Like, I mean, I still think there's, like, there's something to that, you know, marrying all these elements, right? It can't be just about the technology to me. And maybe I'm showing my age and my relevance in that way.

Jason: You are. You definitely are.

Mike: I guess I am... I mean... no, just because I think... but you have one... you have one, you know, you've one bad review, one, you know, one, "My god, that trip was terrible. Did anyone actually go to that property?" You know, it was not what I thought I was buying. And it's not just the property, but then that's your reputation as Chase too. Like, I... so I think that's what I'm getting at. Like I think there's... there's got to be some... It can't just all be about that. It has to be more. Also, it's back to brand and brand reputation, which I think is going to carry the day. But anyway, well, kind of thinking through like when you look ahead now, boiling it down: top opportunities, challenges ahead in the next 12, 18, 24 months? Like what's on your... you know, what are you thinking about in the shower? What do you think? What are you worrying about when you go to bed? What's the... you know, what's on your mind these days? Big picture.

Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think the immediate term is just keep plugging on the plan. Like we've got, you know, we set this thing in motion with sort of a five-year plan and we're chopping wood and getting through that and I feel great about the execution of the team so far. But we've got some immediate things that, you know... just do basic things right? How do we improve the experience, making it easier for folks to find things, upgrading the commerce platform to be more modern looking and feeling. We're investing a lot in things like content and the inspiration stage, not just the transaction stage. So you can see like, "Hey, great new hotels here and great places to dine over here." So layering a lot of that in, and you've probably seen that if you've played around with our site, that that's all sort of net new. We've got a whole team around doing that, having, you know, great content. The Edit is a prime example.

Last year, we were the first online entity to have Southwest. They've just done a deal now, Expedia has them too. But listen, you know, the fact that we're the only one in the loyalty space with that... So continuing to figure out how do we differentiate our content. We've got these great co-brand partners, right, that we're working with to be able to do that. So I feel really good about that.

Um, the longer term, I think moat for us that we can start to build on is what we were talking about. How do we harness the data in the right and appropriate way, given what we know about the customer? If we can do that, there's just an advantage there that no one else is going to be able to replicate. And I would say the other thing is, you know, we're talking about travel, but the firm is invested in a lot of lifestyle assets. Our dining platform, we acquired a company called The Infatuation, right? On the offer side, we own our own destiny there. We acquired a company called Fig. So we have all of these assets. And to the extent that we can, with data, start stitching these things together where it's not just about the trip, it's about the things we do on the trip. And it's about the value that we can deliver to you through great offers to help you during your trip, whether it's a new bathing suit or whatever that might be, right? So those are our plans and strategy as part of this commerce world. And if we get that right, in my mind, that's the opportunity that really kind of separates us. So that's, you know, coming in the coming years sort of thing once we get through our immediate cycle. But that's what I'm excited about.

On the challenges, you know, none of the macro stuff or even – you know, the competitive side is something that I worry too much about. I like keeping an eye on it, but you know, at the end of the day, I think if we do what we're trying to do, we'll be fine. It's really around things like prioritization, right? I mean, we... there's just so many things we would like to do. And you're like... you think about these things, you're like, "Well, just stack rank them." But the reality is it's hard. There's a lot of trade-off decisions of do this versus that. And we want to, you know, we want to do it all. So, making sure that we are really keeping our eye on the ball of, "These are the things that are important, here's what we're going to deliver," understanding what the customer is looking for... you know, we use this "jobs to be done" product framework to really try to focus our attention on what are the problems we're trying to solve uh with the customer. Um, and then I would say, you know, just complacency, right? I mean, as you get into kind of BAU [Business As Usual] and moving through things, how do we make sure that we're, you know... and this is really the job of leadership to make sure that everyone is focused on the mission and the fact that there's a big mountain there that we're making progress on, but a lot more to do. So those sort of be the extent of it. All that said, I sleep well at night and I feel really good about where we're going.

Mike: Good. Good for you. I'm having a flashback to sitting in meetings with Ed where I would be like, "Yeah, we could do this and we could do this and this." And he'd look at me and be like, "Look, we're going to talk about what we're going to do." He would force me to talk about what we're not doing. I'm having a flashback.

Jason: All good technology leaders and product leaders do that. You have to, right? You got to make choices.

Mike: That's right. Yeah. Uh, all right, so we have our season three wrap-up question. I'm gonna read it. It's: "We're all faced with real and perceived chaos in our personal and professional lives. So how do you cope with chaos in your life?"

Jason: Oh my gosh, what a great question. Uh, I... I'll have... I gotta figure out how to be short with this. I... So I would say that one of the things that I see just in a world that's pretty chaotic these days is, you know, those people that have faith in something, some greater power, it doesn't matter what, is a real benefit in times of chaos. And so I'm fortunate enough where I have that and I anchor to it, believing there's a bigger picture sort of thing and that there's reasons for things happening. There's a lot of comfort in that if you've got that. And I think increasingly as the world kind of moves a little bit away from that and focuses on self, things get a little more chaotic, right? Because you're less receptive to other points of view and you're less receptive to the way things are as just kind of being the way they are. So I benefit from that. I anchor to it as much as I can and it's great. Beyond that, I bought a sauna and a cold plunge, and I use both religiously, and they're absolutely amazing.

Mike: That's good. That's awesome. Bring it down to practical daily tools.

Jason: Something tangible, yeah.

Mike: Great answer. All right. Ed, what do you think? Should we be ready to sign off?

Ed: That's great. Jason, thank you so much for your time. Jason Wynn is CEO of Chase Travel for JPMorgan Chase & Company. Jason, thanks for being a guest on the podcast today.

Jason: Guys, thanks for having me. Cheers. Good luck. Great stuff.

Ed: All right, Mike, another great interview. What do you think?

Mike: Yeah, a lot to unpack, right? When we, uh, when we go back with it, but again, I, you know, it's really interesting. Like I, uh, when you look at the landscape of travel and how, you know, even with all the short-term kind of activities, the bigger picture of what's happening at a very macro level and the growth of Chase Travel and how far, in reality, how far they've come in the last, you know, since... well, since Jason joined and they put these... you know, from the initial acquisition of CX Loyalty and kind of putting the building blocks together. I can still... that seemed... it wasn't that long ago, right? I mean, it's very, you know, you're not... in the scheme of things of how far they've come. And I still remember when the first announcement that came out was, when Chase acquired CX Loyalty. Yep. And then the FROSCH acquisition positioned shortly afterwards. And it was kind of like, "Well, you know..." from inside the industry, it's like, "Well, I think I know where they're trying to go here, right?" But it was like, wow. It seemed... It was very ambitious, but also seemed like, wow, it's going to, you know, take a long time to get to... But in real terms for the industry, they've moved fast. I mean, to grow from what they started with and certainly to where they've gone in a period of time in terms of volume, scale, and everything. It's really impressive. I mean, it's quite a journey, right?

Ed: Yeah. I really liked his answer on personalization. I would love to spend an hour talking to him about it because I would argue that the first bank that actually cracks the firewall between all of the spend patterns on my credit card over a vast sum of time and data and uses that to really understand my intent... We use it to understand what I want out of my portal experience, what I want out of my travel experience, the add-ons that I get when I arrive from travel... from a swimsuit to suntan lotion to the experiences... the first portal, the first bank portal that can crack that and really use AI and personalization to drive that, I think will win the game in a big way. So kudos for Jason saying that they're on their way to cracking that. And I do think the first bank that does that will make a huge dent in the marketplace. So I'll be really excited to see more of that from Jason.

Mike: I agree. And, you know, I mean, look, you know, your purview sitting when you worked with [company name], you know, my work in the past, like Air Canada and another, not to mention the card brand. But like, you know, there's a lot that we also have a lot of insight into that whole, you know, what's involved there. But I agree with you. I think that's right at the heart... the heart of the matter. What you just said, I really do in terms of... and the... and like he said too, the moat that, you know, how they can really form even a bigger moat around their customer base and keeping them loyal is that, you know, the dream is that, you know, if you're a Chase cardholder, you know, when I think travel, the first thing I do is like, "Oh, let me go check the Chase portal and kind of see what's there, see what they're offering me." I might go out and shop and compare still. But at some point, you know, I'm going to do that less and less if I feel like I'm really, you know, getting everything I need. Right?

Ed: Yeah. And in a personalized way.

Mike: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right, Mike, I believe that is our show today. Listen, if our listeners, if you have a challenge in your business or want to better understand the chaotic world of travel, reach out to us at Travel Again to see how we can help bring clarity to your business. Now backed by Focusrite Data and Research. Mike, that is it for today. We will see you back again during our next show.

Ed: Terrific. See you soon, Ed. Cheers.

(Outro Music)